DaoE math « Conewalker

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DaoE math

(11 posts) (5 voices)

Started 9 months ago by yellowscarvesaregangsta
Latest reply from Lord Yuan Shu

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yellowscarvesaregangsta
Bandit Force

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 6

Hi, been a year since I discovered this site, and recently my DaoE craving has returned.

Being a computer science major, I'm interested in the development of AI's. So I decided to make a java AI that fights DaoE battles. I'll make a bunch of different AI's and I'll simulate thousands/millions of battles between them, to determine the optimal strategy for any situation. Then I can include 2-player or 1-player mode where you can battle against the AI or someone else, and manually set the starting armies, tactics, items, and terrain.

This project will be fairly straight-forward, except for a few things: built-in variables and formulas. I'd like to know the following:

1) How is an attack's damage calculated? I know it's a function of #troops, strength, weapon, and enemy armor, but does anyone know the exact formula?
2) What are the odds of doing heavy damage?
3) What are the odds of an attack getting repelled?
4) What formula (function of Agility) determines the order of who attacks?
4b--Does your formation have any affect on who attacks first among your own generals?
5) What formula (function of INT of attacker & defender) determines whether a tactic succeeds or fails?
6) What are the odds of a tactic like Ji Mian or Ce Mian wearing off in a given round?
7) What formula determines how much damage a successful fire or water tactic does?
8] What formula determines how many troops are healed by a healing tactic?
9) What are the odds of the standard AI attacking your front general? your 2nd? etc. (for a separate purpose of designing my AI to choose the optimal formation against the standard AI).

If no one knows these things, I'll just do the simulations while varying these numbers, and record different results for different conditions. I could also start taking stats during my DaoE battles to get estimates.

Posted 9 months ago #
Niahak
Sick Liu Qi

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 665

This topic may have all the wonderful gooey details; if not, you may be able to track down MeteorStrike and see if he's willing to help.

I don't know any of them myself, I'm afraid. Reading through assembly and following along is a bit much for me; I didn't want to learn the NES assembly.

This does sound like a cool project, though I should've thought of this as an assignment when I was a TA for the AI course in school...

Posted 9 months ago #
yellowscarvesaregangsta
Bandit Force

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 6

That thread answered questions 7 and 8.

Meteor mentioned a damage calculator he once had on geocities, so he must know the answer to #1 as well (and judging by the reading, i have a feeling he knows the answer to all of them lol). So Meteor, i humbly request a small beam of the divine light that is your vast wisdom =)

I thought of a couple more questions, ones that perhaps non-gurus could answer:

1a) Could a Power Pill (or random heavy damage) be combined with either the Bei Ji or Fu Bing tactic?
1b) If heavy damage applies to Fu Bing, is the 2nd attack half of the heavy damage, or half of what the normal damage would have been?

2) Can Bei Ji and Fu Bing both be in effect on one officer at the same time?
(Though come to think of it, I don't think those two tactics can be in one's repertoire at the same time, so no one could have ever tested this out.)

EDIT:
3) Can a Power Pill attack be repelled? What about a Bei Ji attack? What about the 2nd attack of a Fu Bing attack?

4) How does the tactic damage formula change when a fire/water protection tactic is in effect? (this one's for Meteor ofc)

Posted 9 months ago #
Niahak
Sick Liu Qi

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 665

Unfortunately YSAG (may I call you that?) Meteor does not grace this esteemed forum with his presence

I'm not sure what your best bet to contact him is. James may know a way, or you may have to try posting at the gamefaqs board to get his attention.

I'm afraid I just haven't played enough DoaE to answer both of those. I think 1a) is true (Power Pill + Bei Ji), I just haven't had to try it.

Posted 9 months ago #
Lord Yuan Shu
LYS
Joined: Jan '07
Posts: 3,748

Hey Yellow Scarves Gangster. Always good to hear DoaE research happening

As for 1 - yes, you can use a Power Pill with Bei Ji and Fu Bing. A Power Pill attack will connect 100% of the time, unless Ji Mian is in effect. If an officer is just under Bei Ji though, the attack can be dodged. I am pretty sure you can dodge Fu Bing as well.

As for the Heavy Damage aspect of Fu Bing - I don't know off hand, but I'm leaning towards the double-damage happening for both parts of Fu Bing (including the 2nd, 'half' damage attack).

No, we cannot get Fu Bing and Bei Ji. Fu Bing is one of the earlier tactics on the bottom slot. Bei Ji is one of the last along with An Sha.

Regarding #4, the magic defense spells...It seems like it shields you to the tune of roughly half the damage you would normally be receiving. That's just me guessing from playing the game many times, I'm sure MeteorStrike has a more accurate reading if he's looked into it.

What's with DaoE? Destiny An Of Emperor?

Posted 9 months ago #
yellowscarvesaregangsta
Bandit Force

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 6

What's with DaoE? Destiny An Of Emperor?
Uhhh yeah...what game are YOU guys talking about?? Destiny Of An Emperor? What the heck game is that??

What I'll do is allow some freedom with the tactics. I'll allow the user to give each army any combination of tactics, and user can also choose whether traditionally separate tactics can both be in effect at once. For instance, you can make an army have both Ce Mian and Ji Mian (or Fu Bing and Bei Ji), and you also decide whether both of those tactics can be used on your enemy at the same time. In addition, you'll get to choose whether an army has a tactician, or whether each officer has his own tactics (like enemy armies in DoaE) and own amount of TP. So my program will simulate many unrealistic scenarios but the ai will be that much smarter as a result

Then if I ever learn NES assembly, i'll make a mod that replaces Capcom's AI with some version of mine, so the battles will be much harder. Or I can give Meteor my AI and tell him to make such a mod =)

For now, I'll go stalk/find Meteor.

What about like, the former Capcom employees who designed DoaE? Where are they hiding?

Posted 9 months ago #
DragonAtma
Ah, ULTIMATE
HAPPINESS!!

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 381

Actually, there may be AI armies that have someone using Fu Bing and someone using Bei Ji in the same party...

IIRC by releasing Mi Zhu or someone you can have someone AI using the third-tier fire skill in the same area as someone using first-tier fire skill!

Posted 9 months ago #
Lord Yuan Shu
LYS
Joined: Jan '07
Posts: 3,748

haha, the original DoaE makers are probably retired at this point. Game was released back when dinosaurs were around (ok not, but 1989 is close enough).

MeteorStrike may be a lost cause. I saw towards the end of his work he was mentioning something about real life and a job, so he may be busy lol huohu.

There can be no Fu Bing and Bei Ji. It is true that if you 'fire' Mi Zhu, he gets Yan Re in the first area while others have Lian Huo. However, it is impossible to have Lian Huo and Yan Re. Just as it's impossible to have Fu Bing and Bei Ji.

Well, if you could really create your own tactics, you could get some dominant combinations. How about Wan Fu, Jin Xian, Ce Mian, Ji Mian, Bei Ji and An Sha? Covers pretty much everything...

Posted 9 months ago #
yellowscarvesaregangsta
Bandit Force

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 6

Well, if you could really create your own tactics, you could get some dominant combinations. How about Wan Fu, Jin Xian, Ce Mian, Ji Mian, Bei Ji and An Sha? Covers pretty much everything...
The goal isn't to make the AI determine the ideal combination, but to determine the best strategy for each possible non-trivial and non-redundant combination.

Real life is for looozers, that's why I'm a poker player

Posted 9 months ago #
CraigLovesNintendo
Jiu-swilling souse

Joined: Jan '09
Posts: 110

That would explain why I can't read your, can't read your, no I can't read y-your poker face. I preferred these strong tactics in DOAE2, because they were balanced better. What I mean is that these few tactics were not completely tantamount to success in a battle; there was a lot more to consider in major fights.

Posted 8 months ago #
Lord Yuan Shu
LYS
Joined: Jan '07
Posts: 3,748

Ya DoaE2 is all about regular attacks at high HP levels (since the damage done is tied so dramatically to the amount of current hp / total hp any given unit has). But, they have stuff like formations in DoaE 2. Thus it's more complicated.

Posted 8 months ago #

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