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Yeah, the created officers for RTK games tend to be the exact opposite of how you try and make them for some reason. :/
The issue with trying to modify created officers’ hidden stats is that… they’re definitely hardcoded somewhere and I have no idea how you would find that. Changing them "after the fact" might be easier, but they’d still be stored in the separate memory.
I’ll take a look now and see if I can at least find some hidden stats. This may include some detective work, so I’ll post the numbers here if I can’t figure this stuff out right away…
Grah. So these are pretty tough.
Here are the tuples I looked up (I tried to choose distinct personalities, as well as some that should be nearly the same). I’ve ordered them by kingdom where possible, so you can see some of the ideas.
Oh, and I haven’t converted this from text because I really don’t want to go through and multiply all that – sorry, but if you want the direct number, multiply first digit by 16 and add the second. A = 11, F = 15.
These are 4 ‘stats’ we "don’t know". They come directly after the 6 stats I outlined above in the hex, so I know they relate to the character in question. (There are more numbers before the 6 stats; I haven’t looked at those yet).
Sun Jian: 7d 44 02 9c
Sun Ce: 7F 5a 02 AF
Taishi Ci: 78 4d FF A6
Han Dang: 82 53 FF 9c
Gan Ning: 7f 4c FF AF
Liu Bei: 4b 64 01 a1
Zhang Fei: 4b 59 FF A8
Zhao Yun: 4b 5a FF 9c
Ma Chao: 46 4f 05 b0
Dong Zhuo: 00 27 08 8b
Lu Bu: 0E 02 FF 9b
Cao Cao: 19 46 00 9b
Xiahou Dun: 19 5a FF 9d
Xiahou Yuan: 19 5c FF 9e
Guo Jia: 19 5a FF AA
Yuan Shao: 65 23 03 91
Yuan Shu: 8c 27 04 9a :)
Gongsun Zan: 3c 3c 09 99
Kong Rong: 13 38 FF 99
Han Fu: 8b 39 FF 95
Here’s what I’m thinking so far:
The first is almost certainly compatibility: for proof of this, just look at Cao Cao’s section (all 19) or Liu Bei’s section (~4b, except Ma Chao who’s lame). I’m guessing Wu is more fragmented because they hadn’t fleshed out a lot of the lesser generals at this point in the series.
The second is probably loyalty or honor: look at Liu Bei’s section, where almost all characters have values in the high 50s or 60s. Yuan Shao and Shu have the expected low values, while Lu Bu is incredibly low, although Dong Zhuo is unexpectedly high (more loyal than Yuan Shao?). So less loyalty than Lu Bu is not only possible, it seems likely if they’re given a default "0" value (which I could sorta see as a bug).
The third part shows who is the heir to a kingdom that has them. Why do I suspect this? Almost all sub-generals have FF (probably a "none"). It doesn’t necesarily designate a ruler, as Sun Ce isn’t always a ruler. Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu and Gongsun Zan all have heirs, so they have numbers; but Kong Rong and Han Fu are rulers who have none. Lu Bu likewise becomes a ruler without an heir, but Dong Zhuo has Niu Fu as one (although I haven’t looked at the code). So the third part designates family.
If you think I might’ve gotten any of the above wrong, please let me know, as I’m pretty tired and going off what I remember of TK lore.
The fourth part confuses me, honestly. Ma Chao stands above all with b0. Sun Ce and Gan Ning both have high values (AF). Makes me lean toward bravery, but Guo Jia (!) is the next with AA, ranking above Sun Jian, both Xiahous, Zhang Fei, Taishi Ci….
So my question for you guys as fellow RTK fans is… what do Ma Chao, Sun Ce, Gan Ning and Guo Jia have that the likes of Yuan Shao, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, Kong Rong, and Sun Jian apparently lack?
Sorry for the long-winded post, I was thinking through this as I wrote it.
I’m guessing kindness and mercy? Also, have you found their life span? I can tell you the compatibility thing is 100% correct. Becuase in every single ROTK games, Cao Cao’s compatibility is 25 which equals 19 in hex.
Perhaps it’s their life span? Some of the life spans in the games aren’t always correct.
BTW, thank you so much! You’re a much much MUCH better hacker than I am. You want to work together on this? Perhaps we can put our efforts together and make it into something special? If not, could you at least stick around and give me tips if I run into trouble?
OH OH!!! One more thing, try hacking stats in ROTK 2 for the NES. For some reason, the game always crashes after you pick your ruler. And yes, I’m 99.99% sure I didn’t hack the wrong numbers. I found all the officer stats easily without any trouble.
Yeah, the created officers for RTK games tend to be the exact opposite of how you try and make them for some reason. :/
Go play ROTK4 and watch people betray someone in battle WITHOUT arranging a betrayal ahead of time! They also have a loyalty of 80 or higher!!! They also complete fucking cowards who flee a battle at the slightest disadvantage. Say you have someone with a 99 power against Zhang He who has a 93, the minute their health drops slightly below that of Zhang he, they turn tail and run!
Hmm, I don’t know anything about hacking but this thread has definitely piqued my interest. I can’t figure out what that fourth value would be…the group with Cao Cao, Dong Zhuo, ect. were all rulers at some point (but Sun Ce in the other group was also).
And there were four other numbers at the beginning besides these four?
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Huo Hu's Adventure started Destiny of an Emperor hackingI didn’t think of kindness and mercy, but it would seem odd to me to have Ma Chao have more kindness than, say, Liu Bei. Maybe it could be some sort of "stubbornness" stat? That would explain Zhang Fei, Ma Chao etc having high stats, and Guo Jia would be the outlier.
It could be life span too, but Guo Jia having a fairly high one would be odd, same with Sun Ce, while Zhao Yun has a short one. Huang Zhong’s stat is 94…
TF – Thanks for the praise, I’m still a beginner though. Some people know assembly code for some of these systems… I’ve only been hacking about a year, but I got to know how the system works through translating an NES game – probably helps that I’m a CS major, so I’ve learned a bit through this or that class. If you can think of anything more interesting to do than just stat hacks (changing text would be easy if we stay within limits – we could correct errors in officer names too), that would be fun. I may give RTK2 NES a try later on.
As far as the numbers before the "normal" stats, here are some examples. There may be 5, but it seems to have an odd format for the beginning part.
Sun Jian: 6a 00 d2 8e 10
Zhou Yu: 4a 00 b5 aa 00
Sun Quan: 6c 00 e6 6a 70
Huang Gai: 3b 00 5b 7c 70
Liu Bei: a1 00 bc a6 60
Guan Yu: 1e 00 4d cd 50
Guan Ping: 29 00 9a aa 10
Liu Feng: d8 00 29 aa 10 (I was curious, he is an heir for Bei)
Huang Zhong: 41 00 96 99 70
Liao Hua: d9 00 77 88 70
Liu Qi: 9d 00 66 a6 00
Wang Ping: dd 00 a7 88 60
Cao Cao: 67 00 fd ef 60
Xiahou Dun: 19 00 9d ad 60
Zhang Liao: 7a 00 a8 99 30
Xiahou Mao: f8 98 86 86 70 (?????)
Yuan Shao: 03 00 a7 b8 40
Yuan Shu: 05 00 d5 89 30
Liu Dai: 6c 8e 86 99 70 (again ?????)
Quan Cong: 99 86 56 77 60
Kong Rong: 43 00 48 95 50
Gongsun Zan: 40 00 96 c9 20
Lu Bu: a3 00 f8 3f 40
Dong Zhuo: 86 00 f9 78 40
The first stat is somewhat odd. The highest values are Xiahou Mao, Liao Hua, and Liu Feng. The lowest are Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, and Xiahou Dun. Lu Bu has a fairly high one, while Kong Rong has a low one. I’m going to have to think about this a while.
Unfortunately, the second stat is a complete mystery. What is so special about Xiahou Mao, Liu Dai, and Quan Cong? The only possibility I could see is cowardice (I don’t recall what Quan Cong did actually :P ) at this point….
The third stat seems to be ambition. Cao Cao, Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu, Yuan Shu, and Sun Quan have fairly high ones. Most values fit the character well, except maybe Wang Ping (though he did betray Wei).
The fourth stat… well, the highest ones are Cao Cao, Gongsun Zan, Zhou Yu, Xiahou Dun… Zhuge Liang’s is e9, while Zhao Yun’s is ee. If it weren’t for Gongsun Zan, I’d say this would be "cool under fire" or some such. Lu Bu, Sun Quan, Huang Gai and Dong Zhuo have relatively low ones… Could be "mercy", but Liu Bei’s is sort on on the low side.
I’m 99% sure the last stat is approximate lifespan. Look at Liu Qi, who was sickly, with 0, and Huang Zhong and Liao Hua who have 70.
Ok Niahak, you’re interested in doing something special, correct? I do have some things in mind, some big ideas, but of course since neither of us are too skilled, I know it’ll have to be toned down (if we can even do anything beyond changing stats).
To be honest, have you ever felt that the 3K games rely too much on having a huge amount of troops? I thought it would be interesting to see if we can do something about that. Add a bit more strategy to the combat. I can’t go into the specifics right now since I don’t know if you and I can pull it off. I know I for one have no clue where to even begin. I do have some vague ideas on how to make it strategic, but I want to hear your thoughts on how much we can do to change the combat. I want to get an idea on what we can accomplish together and maybe get the folks here to put our heads together for some ideas.
Yeah soldier amount usually is what decides things…that and officer ability. Usually they go hand in hand (Cao Cao’s army). Simul attacks seem to take off the most…
Are you considering handicapping the side with less soldiers? Is that even possible?
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Huo Hu's Adventure started Destiny of an Emperor hackingI was thinking something like the side with more soldiers requires even MORE food to keep up their morale while the side with less troops means easier to maintain their morale high and food won’t decrease as quickly. I still have a few minor ideas that I hope would be easier to execute.
Well, I’m not sure if it would be possible to change the equations that decide how much food is consumed and that kind of thing. Right now I’m thinking we may be able to only adjust stats… but there’s only so much you can do with that. I wonder if it might be possible to change who starts where?
If there’s a way we could change how much food soldiers require, that might be interesting. Another thing I thought of doing is making high Army much more rare, so simultaneous attacks can only be done by the "grand strategists" (Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi, Zhou Yu, etc). But that would only do so much to help the problem. I’d have to take another look and see if I can track down anything more interesting, but I’m not sure if I have the patience for it tonight…
Any more thoughts on what the hidden stats could be?
Yeah, actually, I believe one of the hidden stat might be "ambition". I was wrong about the honor thing, it’s actually based on ambition. So the more ambitious you are, the more likely you’ll betray someone. It might function more like the lower the number, the more ambitious you are or something like that. Although I don’t see how Guo Jia isn’t ambitious. He’s one of Cao Cao’s most trusted advisers and he always recommends who they should attack.
See what you can find out about the battle engine. To be honest, I think we should set our sights on ROTK4 instead. The game has more features and a more aggresive AI. Also, I still find ROTK3 strange to hack. I was just trying out what you were saying about Cheng Pu by searching for the word "pu" and while I’ve found some conversations that contains words like poPUlar and things like that, I couldn’t find Cheng Pu.
I’m pretty sure a different one is ambition – I think I mentioned it in my last post, all the traditional ambitious rulers (Cao Cao, Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu) had the most.
It could be something that has to do with ambition… maybe willingness to attack another ruler? That would make sense.
I haven’t tried RTK4 in a really long time, just because the game is really rare and I still don’t have a copy myself. I don’t recall much of anything about the game, but I might give it a try.
What hex editor are you using? WindHEX is case-sensitive, so if you search for Pu you should only get the names – although with bigger names like Liu Bei etc. you will probably have to go through some dialogue first.
I’m using a hex editor call xvi32 actually.
Niahak, what exactly is CS? Unfrotunately, I’m not good with computers at all so I have no clue what it stands for, but I’m guessing it has something to do with computers… right? You see… if all else fails, what do you think about gathering a few more people and create our own ROTK? Of course we can only do this if we can get a few more programmers to help. Sadly, all I have is ambition and ideas, but not the skills to really put them into motion. With hex editing, at least I can do more than just talk.
Hmm… XVI it looks like a good enough hex editor, I’d have to use it to see what’s different. WindHEX was developed specifically to deal with ROM hacking, so it’s pretty well geared toward that.
CS stands for Computer Science, so yeah, I’m pretty much a programmer. I’ve thought about making an RTKesque creation kit (since I also liked Gemfire, Genghis Khan etc), and it doesn’t seem like it’d be incredibly difficult, but it would be time-consuming. I’d want to wait until next quarter to start, since I’m overloading and taking the toughest math class offered here. Plus there are all kinds of side things to worry about, like AIs (pathfinding with partial info. is nasty – so battle AI would be especially tough), amount of depth, ease of use…
Of course, at least half of the effort would be on the part of non-programmers – artists, a composer, writers… Game creation is more art than programming nowadays.
The artist and composer stuff is something I thought we could cheat on; at least during the early parts of the development. My idea is to get started on whipping up a decent demo to show people. We can just use Koei’s graphics for protrait and art work and sprites at first. If we can generate interest, we probably could get people to help with original sprites and things like that. We certainly can’t start right away, we need to outline a plan and see if it’s doable before we even begin. Let me begin by unloading some ideas that I’ve had for a long time.
First of all, officer stats.
We know we can’t please everyone with the officer stats, yet I find the ability to edit them kind of cheesy. Why don’t we have randomly generated stats? Well, not completely random mind you, it’ll be within a certain limit. Like say Zhuge Liang’s intel stats should be between 98-100 because he’s the greatest. Then someone like Guo Jia/Sima Yi would have a intel between 95-99. For weird character like Zhang Fei, we could widen the range for his intel. Let say we give him a random number between 30-60 because sometimes he seems really smart while other times he seems pretty stupid. This way, people won’t feel like the creators hate their character and has to leave everything to luck.
What do you guys think? I’ll be back in a few hours to write down my plans for a strategic battle engine. I need some time to gather up my ideas and think of an easy way to explain it to everyone.
Ok, bare with me because this could be long. I have been dreaming about a ROTK battle engine that is fought with smarts, not just bring 1000000000000 soldiers and crush your enemies.
I’ve posted the basic idea behind it on a few forums, so some of you might have actually seen this before.
I got the inspiration from YuGiOh. The only reason I started getting into YuGiOh is because playing the game made me feel like I’m Zhuge Liang, something that the actual ROTK series has yet to capture.
Since you’re here, I would assume you’re familiar with 3K. You know how in the stories, Zhuge Liang plans everything out in a battle? But when you play the game, you don’t really do much — if any — of that. When you use the confusion tactic, you just use it and pray that it works at random. I mean, I’ve had Zhuge Liang fail to confuse Zhang Fei plenty of times in the game. Often, it feels like you’re just better off attacking them head on then to waste a turn using a tactic that may or may not work.
To get around that problem, we can design something so that tactics work 100% of the time no matter the intel. Liu Chan can confuse Zhuge Liang or Zhuge Liang can confuse Liu Chan no matter what. This sounds crazy right, but it isn’t as crazy as you think. You see, there’s catch. Since you KNOW the tactic will work no matter what, you can try to counter the tactic with your own. So it’s now become a battle of true wits.
Let me give you an example of how this can be applied to a ROTK battle in video game terms.
Let say it’s a Wei vs Shu battle for example. The Shu guys have this special tactic called Rattan Armor. Let say you can activate this tactic when your opponent declares and arrow attack. It allows you to negate all arrow damage except for fire arrows. If they’re hit by fire arrows, they’ll take lots of damage and the army will be on fire.
Shu’s turn: They can hold onto this tactic and use it against an arrow attack.
Wei’s turn: Wei actually launches an arrow attack, Shu activates the tactic they had and completely stopped the arrow attack. But what if Wei also had a special tactic waiting for Shu? What if they had a fire arrow chain combo thus causing Shu’s army to get damage and set on fire.
Shu’s turn: If they were unprepared, then they’re screwed of course. But what if Shu still have a backup tactic? Let say Shu has 2 more tactics up their sleeves. One of them is wind tactic while the other is a tactic called desperate positions. They’re on fire now and they use desperate positions causing their strength to go up, then followed by a wind tactic that completely blows the fire back towards Wei setting them on fire! Then they attack with their powered up troops turning the tables once again.
I think a style like that could really make battles strategic and fun. Not only that, but I think the MIGHT be a way to completely skip path finding AI. Yes, I do have a vague idea on how this can be done, but it’s really hard to explain right now. I need to flesh out the idea some more.
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