Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
We haven't even decided on what stats to use or how exactly we'll do stats, but here are some general skills to consider:
Peace:
Hire: Soldiers are hired at a lower cost
Drill: Soldiers gain skill faster when training
Inspire: Soldiers gain morale faster when training
Diplomat: Better luck when dealing with other forces
Merchant: Better deals when buying & selling
Farmer: Better results for improving harvests
Developer: Better results for improving tax income
Levee: Better results for disaster resistance
Patrol: Better chance of catching enemy messengers
Infiltrator: Better chance of successful subterfuge
Stealth: Less chance of being caught as a messenger
Readiness: Disasters are less damaging
War:
Attacker: Does more damage when doing a normal attack
Flanker: Does more damage with a joint attack
Ferocity: Does more damage with a charge.
Defending: Does more damage when being attacked
Igniter: Better chance with the fire command
Douser: Resistance to the fire command
Captor: Better chance of capturing fleeing officers
Evader: Lesser chance of being captured
Duelist: More effective in duels
Lure: Better chance of luring an enemy with Move Enemy
Ambush: Inflicts more damage when ambushing enemies
Confuse: Lets you confuse enemies (lower power & cannot mode until it ends)
Well yeah, it goes without saying that 29 isn't part of the current battlefield. The next one, though…
For the love of my eyes, pleeeeeease pick a different font!
That's why we need to produce a better AI for using unit types. ;)
-=-=-
1-100 stat is doable, but if we rate skills as 1-100 we'd essentially be giving every single character 20+ stats! XD
As for high-war, I mean characters that would have had high war if the stat was included. Dian Wei, Lu Bu, etc.
-=-=-
When someone uses a retreat command, by definition it's disorderly; the unit loses soldiers (due to desertion), morale, and weapons. If the entire provincial force retreats, gold and food is lost as well.
If we assign food and gold to each unit, it negates the need for supply depots. I feel it'd be best to just have per-force or per-province gold & food.
-=-=-
According to Google, from Beijing (province 6) to Xian (aka Changan, province 12) is 692.4 miles. Going at a rate of 13 miles a day (the same rate Alexander the Great's non-cavalry armies achieved), it'll take only 53 days to cross four provinces, less than half the 120 days rotk2 demands!
So with a bit of forced marching, three provinces in a month is certainly doable!
And remember, the further you are from your intended target province's borders, the more you lose to a retreat command. Going form 11 to 14 in-battle may easily take more than a month, and your troops'll certainly be eating more than they would at peace!
-=-=-
For provinces "locked out" by war, we could always let the players do any command…. at a greater (or much greater!) chance of enemy troops interfering! If you send someone out of the city without a soldier they may easily run right into Cao Cao's armies before they even leave the province…
-=-=-
If Cao Cao was silly enough to let you take province 12, it's his own fault! Especially since you can reinforce it form 29 if needed.
And, of course, you could have simply attacked 12 from 29 instead in the first place…
I specifically mean having a large number of officers in the battle. The exact number they directly control presumably depends on the battle leader's int and their title, but I can see Zhuge Liang having total control unless it's a pretty big battle (think northern campaigns).
As for Zhang Fei, the novel misportrays him. An idiot wouldn't be a top general, and a drunkard would wind up dead. Case in point: Jian Yong cxoems from Liu Bei/Guan Yu/Zhang Fei's home village (and thus was with them the whole time), yet how often do they point him out?
Zhang Fei was, of course, great at battle, but there were only two times the novel got his personality right — when he handled Yan Yan's capture/recruitment exceedingly well, and how he took Guan Yu's death as badly as Liu Bei did (and the tragic consequences from that).
Overall, I'd say that 60-70 int & charm would not be unreasonable.
RANDOM TRIVIA: There are trees near Chengdu that were planted by Zhang Fei and his men that stand even today.
-=-=-
Stats shouldn't really have an effect on how much training and morale new soldiers have; Bob The Peasant will be untrained whether he was recruited by Yin Mo or Zhao Yun. But they can affect how much people loyalty falls…
-=-=-
Unique skills wouldn't REALLY be unique; they'd merely mean that officers have one or two things they're good at.
As for multiple skill levels, no levels in that skill would usually mean "no special training" not "catastrophic". After all, you've probably never given out rice to hungry peasants, yet I'm sure you can do it without calling them bloodsucking parasites or otherwise insulting them! XD At the same time, though, if an officer with no training in dueling is foolish enough to challenge someone very skilled at it…
I can totally see officers gaining levels in skills. Obviously they can't go from Cao Bao to Cao Cao overnight, but it may be best to have exp for every skill (and with enough exp, it goes up a level).
While different unit types are against the grain for rotk2, they were in play as for back as rotk3. Just check LYS's walkthroguhs! XD
-=-=-
8, 9, 10, and 11 all had four or five different stats. 8 had war/int/pol/cha, 9 had lead/war/int/pol, and 10 & 11 both had lead/war/int/pol/cha. I recommend that we go with lead/int/pol/cha (with high-war officers getting high skills for dueling and training).
Of course, if you want to be daring, we could skip lead/war/int/pol/cha entirely and have it be entirely skill-based…
-=-=-
As for personality, they already have that somewhat (loyalty, impulsiveness, expansionism) here; later on, there are other traits as well (how much they like drinking, whether they're greedy, etc.).
Unfortunately, we'll be making up things for some officers no matter what. Yan Liang's life, for example, is mostly unknown. Yan Liang, unknown! *shakes head and sighs*
-=-=-
Are there supply lines? Nonehave been added yet, but that's a good idea. But at the same time, there are clumps of ten thousand soldiers and, therefore, needs for ten thousand meals at once. Zhuge Liang's not about to say "Men! We didn't bring food, but that's okay! There are three, maybe four berry bushes, which is enough to feed all of you for a month!" The retreat command is basically dropping everything (weapons, armor, food, game boys, etc.) and fleeing for safety, presumably while shrieking like a little girl. Okay, maybe not THAT much, but they're not going to hold onto extra weight that burdens them, nor is it in any way controlled.
Of course we can always add minor supply lines. Here's a possible set of rules:
(1) If your unit's in a province you control, you're in supply.
(2) If your unit's withing five tiles of a province you control, you're in supply.
(3) If your unit's within five tiles of a fort or supply depot you control, you're in supply.
(4) Otherwise, your unit's out of supply and, therefore, will lose troops and morale every day.
Supply depots would have to be built during your invasion for 200 gold (or something); enemy troops who move there have the choice of taking or destroying them. Any surviving supply depots are automatically dismantled post-battle by the province's owner for a 50% refund. As for forts, they follow castle capture rules but don't give you the province.
-=-=-
If the invasion is of province 13, then only provinces adjacent to 13 can be added. 14 will become an acceptable target, but troops from 11 will simply appear on 12's border, and may have to trek all the way across 12 and halfway across 13 before they get to fight.
Why yes, province 30 would indeed lose most of its monthly commands; they know that it may get caught up in battle, so they can't risk sending out a shipment of rice only for the enemy to confiscate it! The only acceptable commands would be in-city commands (such as Reward) and military commands (such as Train).
-=-=-
Presumably the combat end is not month-based; it's when every provinces has nbo enemy forces left. When Zhuge Liang sees that 13 is going to falling, it's only sensible to send the spare troops off to attack 12.
As for troops being pursued as they withdraw form 12 to 13, we cna always add an exception for that case (say, "If enemy trops are within three tiles of yours, the battle continues". But we don't want things to be TOO complex!
If you go to take province A and wind up getting province B instead, that happens.
-=-=-
The problem with limiting combat to only two provinces is that even the biggest battles get so…. underwhelming. If you have a whopping 310,000 soldiers in a battle — see http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588628-romance-of-the-three-kingdoms-ii/62701813 for EPIC DETAILS — it only makes sense that multiple provinces (in this case, three of mine and one of his; three of mine and two or even three of his would also be possible) are involved! Remember, by now we're not merely doing battles, we're doing outright campaigns…
-=-=-
If the attacker can't handle a defender in his own borders, it's his fault — and happened before as well. A famous example (Attacking Wei To Save Zhao) — see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guiling for the detailed version and see http://middlekingdomtales.com/2009/07/23/p66-advice/ (and the next dozen or so strips) for the awesome version.
And troops should be able to go anywhere on the battlefield. There shouldn't be an invisible line that repels officers from going too far away! XD
You know, MidKnight was silly enough to skip my idea of including officer skills. Therefore, we should use them here! XD
But we need to decide whether skills are one (or two) per officer (rotk 9,11) or if they're mix-and-match (rotk 4,8,10).
And if we go with mix-and-match, we'd need to decide whether they're yes/no (rotk8 strategies) or individual levels (rotk8 tactics).
For the record, one (or two) skills per officer would mean more skills (and more coding) than mix-and-match, but less deciding who has what. Multiple mix-and-match levels means more deciding than yes-or-no, but it also feels like it'll make a better game, and multiple levels for a mix-and-match Dueling skill would probably let us combine war and lead into a single stat. Atma's recommendation is to go with multiple levels mix-and-match. [Advisor DragonAtma has 93 Int]
-=-=-
On a side note, advisor advice should depend both on the advisor's intelligence and how close the decision is. Even the dumbest advisors in the land won't think "It's 235 AD? Hell yeah, now my good friend Gongsun Yuan can totally conquer Wei!" ;)
http://www.chaz.org/Arch/China/City/City.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Chinese_urban_planning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_An#Han_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_city_wall#Extant_city_walls
Have fun!
-=-=-
If you can alpha blend, masks shouldn't be a problem. As for borders, that can be built into the map.
The map doesn't have to be ultra-realistic, but yes, it should have SOME effort put into it — or pictures of kittens! XD
Morale is sensible; they introduced it in virtually all of the later rotk games.
-=-=-
I thought I explained war well, so here, have a map. Ten points to everyone who recognizes the map! (tragically, the points are worth less than a zimbabwe dollar)
Province ownership is claimed by entering the castle; if you're sensible, you'll leave someone to sit on the castle so the enemy doesn't regrab it! However, if side A has province X's castle but only side B has troops there, side B gets province X.
Attacking units should be allowed to show up any square in the defending province adjacent to where they started OR in their starting province.
Defensuive starting units will have standard starting spots, just like rotk 2. if we want a formula for what's allowed:
* The castle
* Any fort
* Any water adjacent to the castle (except province edges)
* Any forest within four tiles of the castle (except province edges)
* Anywhere else within two tiles of the castle (except edges)
Reinforcements (for both sides) will show up on the edge of the provunce they moved to, adjacent to where they came from. The battle will only expand to include a reinforcement province if it's adjacent to the original target — it will not expand the way a minor squabble [originally, anyway] in 1914 did!
Attackers can send units that have not done anything; defenders can send every unit in the proper province(s), no matter what.
Retreat means moving to a province not involved in the battle. If 12 and 13 are both involved in the battle, wei forces would have to retreat to either 14, 11, or 20.
In addition, the "retreat" command should mean "drop everything and get the heck out of dodge". If they're deep in enemy territory when they do so, they may lose a significant number of troops and supplies, especially if morale is low. Instead, manually withdrawing back to your territory may be better, but if you risk the enemy coutner-invading your province you may have to make a tough choice! XD
Deciding that the battle is over can mean no forces being left in a province the other side owns. , but if Zhuge Liang throws everything at 13 and it falls (along with all wei forces there), the battle ends before he can take 12. Of coruse, it's his fault he didn't send any forces to attack 12… XD
When the battle is over, both sides should have a dialogue to decide who goes where… assuming they finished with at least one of the contested provinces!
-=-=-
Keep in mind that armies were mostly conscripted peasants. Nice rulers trained them into real officers, while not-so-nice rulers often kept them up front so as not to lose any elite troops! :thumbsdown: That said, rulers had ways of ….convincing… peasants to become soldiers, but each province has only a finite number of people. Yuan Shao sometimes ends up with enough troops — both in the later RoTKs and even in #3 (hi, LYS!) — that he can't afford to pay and feed them, and over-recruiting here may be the prelude to a downward spiral. That said, it may be best to limit the number of troops recruited in one go (based on the officer's stats), but not to limit it to zero unless the province is in a truly horrid state.
Recruiting troops with low population loyalty may indeed cause a riot — and it's your own fault for going LBJ on them! XD
As for Shamoke, he was never a bandit, but a king of tribal people. But even for actual bandits (such as Zhang Yan), I'm sure they can find people willing to join them.
Officers likely won't be drunk here; they may be headstrong, but that won't depend on whether they're a blockie or not.
Unless the player selects only block members to fight, they should have at least some control.
I apoologize if I seem inconsistent on the officer block system; it isn't set in stone or even set in clouds. XD That said, an officer block is like a mini-force; you probably should have full control over them in peace, but only general controls ("Attack Zhang He!", "Defend Hanzhong!", "Campaign for Obama!") in battle — and you have just as much control over them as anyone else under AI control.
-=-=-
The player has direct control, EXCEPT for battles involving blockies and/or large numbers of officers… and provinces delegated to the AI. XD
Blockies will never ignore an order unless the leader has low loyalty (at which point he may defect)
Non-defecting Blockies and AI officers will always follow the order to the best of their capabilities, but you know how AI can be….. imperfect.
Blockies will only attack another province on their own if they think they can win AND the leader has middle-to-low loyalty.
Non-blockies will only attack a province on their own if you put the province under AI control AND gave them the permission (or outright order!) to do so.
General-to-general interaction hasn't been decided yet, and may be limited just to event.
-=-=-
For shading the china map, consider having a standard map (a la google maps or somethign), with 50% transparency in the province's shape and force's color. A bit more work is probably needed (such as province borders XD), but…
Keep in mind that RoTK didn't get into 3D until RoTK 11. Yes, four of their five PS2 games were 2D! XD
-=-=-
Finally, if this confuses anyone — whether Unfy or anyone else — ask away and I'll do what I can to explain better.
Erm, what I ment to say is that if shu invades province 13 (using the rotk2 map), it could involve those five provinces (and, therefore, match Zhuge Liang's northern campaigns).
The point is that you get to capture multiple provinces at one; the other point nis thta the attacker also risks losing the province(s) they attacked from.
But at the same time, there could be a lot of officers in battle. If there are five officers per provinces, that'd be twenty-five officers. So only some of them would be player-controlled; the best would be directed by the AI, although they certainly want the player to win!
As for realism, don't worry — we're not making this Sim3k. ;) At the very least, a ruler here should have the level of cotnrol they have in RoTK8 and RoTK 10. In addition, every force should be able to win…. even though some will have lots of difficulty (Gongsun Yuan anyone?)
There shouldn't be limits on how many soldiers the player can recruit…. unless they really go overboard in recruiting the population en masse, which is a problem in rotk2 too!
In battle, officers you control normally should have no problems with disobeying; the only problems would be if a headstrong officer gets challenged to a duel or confused/mislead/etc… and that's true in EVERY rotk game with those options. ;)
No officers should have special limitations like the ones you suggested, especially since Ma Teng and Han Sui first pledged allegiance to Dong Zhuo! (things quickly soured).
Personality shouldn't be more complex than it is in the rotk games. Rotk8, for example, has:
(1) Name
(2) Face
(3) War
(4) Politics
(5) Intelligence
(6) Charm
(7) Ferociousness
(8) Calmness
(9) Ambition
(10) Justice
(11) Lifespan
(12) Compatibility
Food going down each month makes sense; gold going down slightly each month (salaries) also makes sense.
Finally, attempting to capture an enemy officer should be attemptable; damage would be stacked in the enemy's favor, though (say, half deaths for them, double for you), and the odds of success are low unless they have few troops, a headstrong officer, and/or a lower war officer. And, of course, there's always a slight chance the officer dies instead…
Presumably, battles can only involve the target province and every province adjacent to it. So in rotk2, Zhuge Liang's northern invasions would be limited to 12, 13, 14, 29, and 30… which would still be enough to count as a full campaign!
As for boundaries, every province should have a minimum and maximum coordinates; they'll fit together perfectly, but the battle program will limit the map based on the minimum and maximum of the x & y numbers. So if the individual provinces have these (x,y) numbers:
(8,10)~(20,24)
(7,15)~(16,36)
(15,14)~(32,32)
Then the combined map will be:
(7,10)~(32,36)
-=-=-
As for the loss of dictatorship, realism means that total control may not be the best of ideas. Keep in mind that some officers can be amazingly hotheaded; just think of all the times that Sum Dumgai rode out to battle Zhuge Liang's officers even though Sima Yi outright ordered them not to!
So it may be best to limit how many officers are player-controlled based on the attack leader's rank and intelligence. The rest — and any blockies — are AI-controlled, although you can still give simple orders such as "Defend Hanzhong's castle" or "Attack Zhang He".
Although if a block leader is loyal enough, they may be willing to accept direct orders…
In rotk2 Chengdu is 33.
But who's to say that we'll be using the same map?
-=-=-
On a side note, I've had an interesting idea for a while: define a map shaped like each province, and have battlefields be composed of all maps for involved provinces. So if Cao Cao invades Luoyang form Xuchang and brings reinforcements from Chenliu, then the map will be the maps for Luoyang, Chenliu, and Xuchang fused together. We'll need to figure out how exactly to work things out, but all three will be up for grabs — Cao Cao is capable of losing both of those provinces, just as Ma Chao managed to lose his entire land when he invaded Changan.
Finally, even if we go with the standard method, we should have a base camp for the attacker to defend. They have to coordinate their plans and store their food SOMEWHERE!
HAH! In my incomplete sample window, the only thing I have is the china map with the current province highlighted. XD
And don't worry, I will definitely be using png.
Yeah, I figured that out with the star cuts XD
You've overdone it, though… and we can always do a sleek, modern design despite it being a 200 AD-ish setting.
Maybe I'll try a hand at producing something, but do keep in mind that I have other tasks to do as well…
Awww, Liu Yan is so cute!
That said, you may be overdoing it with the chinese influences.
Also we need to decide on which stats — both for the provinces and for the officers — to use.
